Tom Sanladerer has an opinion on the MPCNC

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This topic contains 49 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  Ryan 2 years ago.

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  • #38821

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    But it isn’t a good one….

    #38825

    Johnny
    Participant

    He also hasn’t really done his homework either it seems talking about the MPCNC using 8mm rods. Maybe he was just exaggerating, but still. And for him to make the comment “Look what this guy is using” referencing how thick the material is. I have seen some very heavy built machines run like crap and machines that look like they are barely holding themselves together run like a top. So don’t judge a book by its cover. He is also wanting something purpose built for aluminum milling. Not what the MPCNC was designed for, you can just use it as such. Unfortunately from the few minutes I watched Tom seems to be confusing the term CNC with Mill. A CNC can be anything. What Tom wants is a mill, not a router or printer, but a mill.

    #38826

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Well it was cool he knew what it was, “MPCNC, the Mostly printed CNC” So it has been on his radar somehow. I just don’t want to give my machines away to these youtube people just to get views at the cost of the real interested users. Low cost means no giveaways, (well I am about to give one away but that is a different story). But I need to do something to get on the radar, these other companies are crushing me.

    #38837

    Barry
    Participant

    Isn’t that the cnc we saw at MRRF? They had two of them running.

    Also, he probably should have got the thing going off camera, since he killed the live stream before actually getting it to work. I think it’s funny he’s calling this one “janky mdf with some 3d printed parts”. Good way to stop people from sending you stuff to show.

    #38840

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Yup, they have been getting tons of press with that thing.

    #38841

    Barry
    Participant

    It is a wicked simple design, but it can’t scale.

    #38842

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    I have no idea how they are doing free shipping on that thing, big pieces of MDF and all the parts. Man If I can figure out how they do it I will immediately switch companies. $399 free shipping us and Canada.

    There is no way that box is under $30.

    So I guess I should raise my price $16 and do free shipping in the US, and $16 cheaper everywhere else? That might actually help sales a lot. I can see I have a ton of abandoned carts. So I can only assume shipping was a deterrent. Somehow that feels creepy to me though like a little lie.

    Maybe I will try it for two weeks.

    #38843

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    I have some aluminum extrusions, I tried to make a printer out of it. It is twisted as heck and no where near 90 degrees. I watched a video of how they make it. It comes out like spaghetti and then they just stretch it straight. I guess at those lengths it must not be an issue but a little longer and I found serious issues.

    #38855

    Barry
    Participant

    That’s what I was thinking too. Having had that shit fold on my trying to make a lighter tv mount, I won’t use it for anything other than trim now. Luckily we didn’t hang the tv yet, I weight tested it with me. Ended up using unistrut. I have the weirdest job sometimes… Hung a 70″ samsung in the center of a cube farm.

    #38857

    Dui, ni shuo de dui
    Participant

    About the “free” delivery, just do it. The thing is that people never like to see the first price they saw (and implicitly agreed upon) change after they decided they were ok to pay for it. It’s somehow deceiving.

    No one really cares if free shipping isn’t actually free. Aside from the dumbest morons, everyone knows that even free stuff comes at a price. So, I can only recommend you to add this cost into the basic price.

    About visibility, you should post as many videos of your machine you can on Youtube, tutorials on how to get it running, things you’ve made, step by step instructions and stuff like that.
    Maybe also try to find an other similar price ranged machine and do a honest comparison between both.
    Also, maybe you could build a few small MPCNCs easy to ship assembled, so that you can lend them to those famous youtubers, journalists and bloggers. They try your machine, give a review, then send it back to you, you just pay for the delivery and try to make it as much plug and play as you can.

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #38858

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Yeah even 80/20 says .3175mm/foot (sorry for the odd units but I understand small better in mm long in feet) straightness, ummm I wonder how conduit does in this category…

    https://www.amazon.com/forum/-/Tx14DGNJ8VUBEXI/ref=ask_dp_dpmw_al_hza?asin=B001F0K4YG

    #38860

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    They do use really beefy angle, but I am not sure that is any different.

    I had looked into getting custom extrusions made….and patented but the tolerances sucked.

    #38861

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Thanks Dui, I could never compare my machine to another objectively. I feel horrible for talking about aluminum angle in this context.

    I am with you on the shipping thing though, I am trying to figure out how to switch mine around. I am currently using sized based shipping rates and would need to translate that somehow to price based or some other easily understood qualifying criteria, without having to readjust my whole store.

    #38868

    Dui, ni shuo de dui
    Participant

    BTW, the video of Thomas is pretty long, at what time approximately does he talk about the MPCNC? I don’t have enough time today to watch the whole thing…

    #38869

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    The link I put up starts right at the little blurb

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #38870

    Kevin Lopez
    Participant

    I would love to see a comparison of straightness and just general tolerances on regular conduit vs 8020. Only issue is that conduit varies by vendor and manufacturer runlike most aluminum extrusions which seem to be dominated by 80/20, especially in the US. I have looked around a lot at comments and sadly, the design can be a tough sell for newcomers. The idea of mostly plastic really puts some people off which is unfortunate because the design is great. It is easy to get caught up in just seeing the sheer size in raw material and assuming it is more rigid and a better machine. Also, the steel in our conduits is almost 3x more stiff than that of most aluminum alloys. Question is, is it stiffer than an aluminum extrusion?

    That said, everyone I recommend the MPCNC to shows great interest because there isn’t something out there that takes the same conduit rails/printed approach. I was recommended the MPCNC from reddit and I am glad I did. πŸ™‚

    I agree to make the shipping free. When I sell my junk on ebay I always ship free but charge a little more. I do agree it seems sort of cheaty because it really isn’t “free”, but if it gets more mpcnc made then I consider it to be a good thing πŸ™‚

    Judging from the comments and the general commentary in that video, aluminum milling seems like the big target audience. It seems to be the benchmark material for rigidity on practically any consumer level cnc router. I would hate watching someone turn down the MPCNC due to doubt in its abilities, there has to be a better presentation of its milling capability. I agree with dui in that there needs to be some sort of comparison between a few popular machines. I know it is hard to make such a comparison because there are far too many variables, but little to no comparison it at all makes it like a shot in the dark. When dui finishes his 3040, at least we will have an idea of how they compare.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #38875

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Well dang Kevin your video is easily the one I will refer everyone to that has doubts about the MPCNC’s aluminum capabilities, and then Barry’s monster build did well to. I mean 4’x4′ aluminum milling on the monster, no other machine can even touch that because they are not capable of being built that size. That alone should sway a few people.

    #38876

    Dui, ni shuo de dui
    Participant

    Judging from the comments and the general commentary in that video, aluminum milling seems like the big target audience. It seems to be the benchmark material for rigidity on practically any consumer level cnc router. I would hate watching someone turn down the MPCNC due to doubt in its abilities, there has to be a better presentation of its milling capability.

    Indeed.
    I will talk about my personal experience here, but what convinced me to give a try on the MPCNC was to see it cutting aluminum.
    Before that, I had huge doubts about the structure rigidity, and I thought it would barely be ok for milling soft woods. If I had not seen it milling aluminum, I would have made my own design.
    We need much more videos of MPCNC milling aluminum, and much more instructions on how to achieve good aluminum milling. Thanks to Ryan and more recently to Kevin (and e few others on Youtube), we do have a few videos of successful attempts. The last video of Kevin was especially convincing, we need more videos like that, where the CNC takes deep paths. Unfortunately I have no camera except the one on my shitty phone, so I cannot really do videos, but I’ll do my best continuing to post as many pictures as possible. People need to see stuff to know that it works.

    I agree with dui in that there needs to be some sort of comparison between a few popular machines. I know it is hard to make such a comparison because there are far too many variables, but little to no comparison it at all makes it like a shot in the dark. When dui finishes his 3040, at least we will have an idea of how they compare.

    Yep, I hope we can make the first actual comparison between both machines soon!
    Unfortunately my electric scooter blew up yesterday, so I’m not sure I’ll have much time to work on the CNC this weekend cuz I’ll have to fix it, but I’ll get to it as soon as I can!
    And I still don’t know how to make this tool changing probe work on Estlcam!!

    #38877

    buurin
    Participant

    Ooh, born out of University of Waterloo. Should support more Canada innovation, lol

    So Sienci is C$503 for the kit (Ridgid compact router is another $99, available separately at Home Depot, also compatible with Makita). Me having to start from scratch my tally for my MPCNC build have been…

    C$371 for the hardware and electronics
    5 spools of kilogram PLA filaments at C$29 each
    C$149 for a Makita compact router, DW660 could be had for C$100 on sale.
    C$499 for the Wanhao i3 to get it all started. OK, I can use it to print something else and/or for the MPCNC build to steal parts from.

    Much closer to C$600 net. And I still haven’t built a proper table for it.

    It’s already over the $399 price point, and Ryan’s kit (US$245 hardware+US$190 plastic) doesn’t include the spindle either.

    Someone interested in an in-depth comparison?

    #38878

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Five spools? Should be easily under two.

    #38879

    Dui, ni shuo de dui
    Participant

    wow, PLA spools are crazy expensive in the US…
    In China one kilogram costs around 4-5 bucks.

    Can’t you find anything cheaper?
    I use the cheapest PLA possible, still works very well. I never really understood why people are purchasing the expensive stuff. Tried both and saw no difference whatsoever.

    #38880

    Kevin Lopez
    Participant

    Pretty sure almost all filament comes from China anyway. That or the pellets are imported. I buy my filament from ebay for about $19 per kg but lately I have found some for less, about $15. And I am using the really no brand stuff, not the supposed carbon nanotube infusion PLA witchcraft stuff they sell now a days. You lucky Chinese get all the good stuff without the middleman. Dui you should become my new filament supplier πŸ™‚

    #38882

    Jim Hildebrandt
    Participant

    That little cnc router looks like a solid design, but very limited in use. I view the MPCNC for what it is, a CNC platform. We see it milling aluminum, wood and plastics. Lasers mounted to it doing cuts and art. Extruders mounted doing massive prints. High speed needles cutting foamboard. Drag knives & pens mounted cutting vinyl & plotting drawings. Plasma cutters mounted cutting steel and aluminum with ease. I think its versatility is what should be promoted more, but unfortunately have no experience in advertising.

    3 users thanked author for this post.
    #38884

    Jeffeb3
    Participant

    I started my mpcnc because I always wanted a CNC. I didn’t even care how well it worked. I started printing without really thinking about it, and once I had it mostly printed, I had to buy the vitamins from Ryan. Glad I did. But I didn’t really compare against the competition.

    Also agree on free shipping. At least with the kits. You don’t charge for the credit card charge separately, or your design time. I buy a loaf of bread, I don’t care what the flour costs.

    Don’t think all those abandoned carts will go away though. I put stuff in baskets just to have lists. Or I will compile a list for someone else or I will just be lazy about adding up what everything costs. Some of them will turn though.

    I also think that people have no idea what something is worth until they see a price. The first time they see the price is when they build an impression of value. $399 doesn’t just look more like $300 than $400, it looks like a good value because people see something that’s close to $400 but feels more like $300. I used to sell stereos as circuit city and Bose was the worst. Terrible speakers. Excellent marketing and I swear the reason they sold at any time is because they were 3x as expensive. $1999 for the whole system eh? Must be good! Plus Dr. Bose is a freakin’ doctor!

    W.r.t. the video. Cool that he knows what it is. Too bad he didn’t actually try it. I bet his machine would sing. He is really smart.

    I keep expecting to see your MPCNC in Make magazine…

    #38900

    geodave
    Participant

    I took a quick glance at that video, saw all the MDF in the build & immediately clicked the dislike button.

    #38963

    Jason
    Participant

    When I first saw the MPCNC I have to admit I shook my head and thought “what a joke” then didn’t even look at it seriously enough to give it a fair evaluation. Just the idea of conduit and PLA parts seemed way to likely to be janky and not easily reproduced.

    Then a few weeks later I saw djk4linux’s post on flighttest about needle cutting. And again I let my pessimism get the best of me and assumed “Yeah, that’s going to really ragged cuts and not very reliable.”

    But…his thread got a lot of interested and I read through it to see why. And his cuts actually looked pretty darn impressive. And I had been wanting a CNC for a LONG time (Actually started planning builds a few times but the price always grew quick and scared me off.) I also had just got my 3D printer really dialed in and working great and wanted a big project to tackle with it.

    Did some more research and saw that the MPCNC was actually very viable and not just a toy…then Ryan posted that crazy 4 head video which while not very practical was impressive enough it got me thinking this thing looked like serious fun to build.

    And when I added up the prices…it was actually something I could afford. Ryan’s part kits are a great deal, but I already had a spare RAMPS on hand…and buying piecemeal I could spread the cost out over two months while I took my time printing the parts. Having a good wholesale hardware dealer in town who deals with the public helped a lot too – just gave them a list of what I needed and walked out half an hour later with 98% of the hardware I needed for about $25.

    I kind of wish Ryan had more kit options. I’d have gladly bought a set of steppers/gears/belts even if it was a bit more expensive. I just didn’t want a full kit because I already had the electronics, hardware was easy to source cheap but high quality locally and let me start building without needing all the parts, and I already had about half the bearings on hand since they’re a common size I’ve used in other projects. But…I accept that I’m an exception rather than the rule and it would be a lot more work for Ryan to sell more partial kits instead of focusing on the full kits.

    Anyway…my point before I wandered off was I can easily see how someone would misjudge the MPCNC at first glance as I did so myself twice. But having built mine and used it…this is a hell of a machine at a killer price and I preach it to anyone who’ll listen πŸ˜€

    I just wish I could convince my wife that I should build a second smaller one for milling so I can devote my bigger one to laser/foam cutting/plotting and have a smaller stiffer one to go with it! Wish she’d stop pointing out I don’t really have room for another and we really need to replace our car and truck before I sink more money into another “big” project πŸ˜‰

    #38964

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Thanks everyone for the vote of confidence!

    I have no doubt the Sienci is a great product. I am not trying to give any doubt in anyway. I have seen and touched it at MRRF version 1 was great.

    As it has been pointed out a small CNC mill is not what I designed.

    Specifications

    I made a CNC platform. I made a swiss army knife of micromanufacturing. At the time of designing this thing people were freaking amazed at putting a diode laser on a 3D printer. I belittled all these things and pitched my idea top a 3D printer company, they didn’t have time for it, other priorities in mind. I guess I saw the ramps/marlin/slicers as the key I had always needed to build anything I wanted. Once I learned the basics I couldn’t believe these machines were not everywhere. The ones that did come out had stupid price tags. Broke and in college, working for free as an intern these things pissed me off.

    I wanted a laser “cutter” etcher, I had a single function vinyl cutter…sold it immediately For more than 2 MPCNC’s cost, I wanted a CNC mill to try some things out, I wanted tools that I couldn’t afford. So I built this.

    My machine might not be perfect at everything, Neither am I, but it can literally do just about every precision job you need it to well enough to evaluate if you should really spend 100x’s as much on the prosumer equivalent. For those of you in doubt that might read this, If you plan on making a part that needs more precision than this machine can do, you have 100% designed it wrong and could never afford to mass manufacture it.

    I want people to be able to make things by themselves, at home. I want to enable people to make locally, wherever local is. Prototype, make a quick demo. Do some small manufacturing before you launch a kickstarter and try to sell hundreds of thousands. Do custom stuff, do customizing, change your mind pivot and try something else. Stop buying crap online and make something yourself, or if you do buy online have an understanding of what things are worth.

    In reality the more machines out there the better. More support, more knowledge, cheaper parts.

    Working on the shipping thing now.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #38965

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    I want people to be able to make things by themselves, at home. I want to enable people to make locally, wherever local is. Prototype, make a quick demo. Do some small manufacturing before you launch a kickstarter and try to sell hundreds of thousands. Do custom stuff, do customizing, change your mind pivot and try something else. Stop buying crap online and make something yourself, or if you do buy online have an understanding of what things are worth.

    Is this too long for a slogan, Maybe it’s time for a mission statement page?

    #38967

    buurin
    Participant

    Five spools? Should be easily under two.

    Tons of misprints, prototypes and other projects…
    Now I need a way to recycle them.

    wow, PLA spools are crazy expensive in the US…
    In China one kilogram costs around 4-5 bucks.

    Can’t you find anything cheaper?
    I use the cheapest PLA possible, still works very well. I never really understood why people are purchasing the expensive stuff. Tried both and saw no difference whatsoever.

    This is Canada, things are even more crazy expensive than in the US…

    I bought my filaments from the shop I bought my Wanhao from. And that other electronics place actually sell 500g filaments for more than this guy per unit weight. The $29 is for “better” PLA. I also have a $25 kilogram spool of standard PLA and I don’t like it as much. And this is already quite good a price.

    #38969

    Jakob A
    Participant

    It is a bit long for a slogan, perfect for mission statement πŸ™‚

    The Sienci does look like a good simple design, but wait I have the MPCNC, I can just cut the frame for Sienci myself πŸ™‚
    Then again I don’t really need one since I have the MPCNC… but if would be fun .. no no, no more machines, but…

    I think I would rather build another MPCNC or a lowrider, if I didn’t already have at least 3 unfinished projects

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