Tom is about to do his build…

New Home Forum Updates Tom is about to do his build…

This topic contains 547 replies, has 75 voices, and was last updated by  K Cummins 5 days, 12 hours ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 421 through 450 (of 548 total)
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  • #114597

    Rick
    Participant

    Ryan you don’t owe us any apologies in my opinion, none of this is your fault that I can see.

    One fringe level thing that you could maybe clarify though.  I keep seeing it mentioned that your license could affect using your machine on a youtube video for profit.  I took the license to mean you just can’t print/sell the machines for profit but had no effect on how you use them.

    I feel like if the argument can be made that a person can’t use one of your machines in a youtube video (even for profit), you could also say you can’t use the machine for profit, period (cnc’ing things to sell).  Maybe I’ve misunderstood the license this entire time haha

    Clarity in that area could be good.

    Edit:

    Found elsewhere on your site “Meaning you can use them and/or you can alter them if you indicate changes were made and include credit to the original, and you can not use them for commercial purposes (meaning you can not sell my parts or designs but you can use them to make money).”

    Likely answering my own question but maybe it’d still be good for you to offer your input.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Rick.
    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Rick.
    #114598

    Jeffeb3
    Participant

    It’s very hard to know when to drop it and when to fight. Being right on the Internet isn’t really worth anything. I put the chatter and the doubts into the category of a missed opportunity. This could have been awesome. If Tom could have asked where to look, or taken it into consideration the suggestions from Ryan.

    Separate from that was the rift that happened over the redesign.

    #114605

    Mmmfishtacos
    Participant

    Ryan, if you would like to get your side out I can out you in contact with a budding youtuber. He runs in part a very large prusa facebook group. Cool and friendly guy and I’m sure he would love to have you on.

    #114607

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Thanks guys.

    I am really not sure if anything should or needs to be done. I am defaulting to do nothing for now.

    I should probably at least edit the license page a bit to at least outline what I consider appropriate use….maker code if you will. Good idea Rick, I was just scared to change anything or get slammed stuff as well.

    #114613

    Bryan
    Participant

    First I want to say I love the design of the mpcnc. Mine has a 12″×24″ work area and I’m amazed at what it can do. My opinion may not be popular but I don’t see a reason for all the drama. I think Ryan handled it. Tom mistook a business for a open source project. I did the same. I use too think it was messed up when people talked about buying parts on Ebay or Amazon. I wanted to support the originator and bought everything except the steppers which were out of stock from Ryan. But now that I see its a business and not a open source project I still love the design but I won’t feel guilty buying my parts from the cheapest source when I build the lowrider. A business has to earn my patronage where an open source project deserves support.

    #114615

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    I can appreciate that, that is a perspective I have not heard but understand. If you do not want to buy from me, that is kind of the point of my designs, you don’t have to.

    Tom repeatedly said closed source in his whole build series, I think that was the drama. He knew exactly what he was doing.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Ryan.
    #114616

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Maybe think of this from a different perspective. If I was open source but you could only get specialized parts that I designed, from me, would I still deserve your business?

    So I make an open and globally accessible design as my design philosophy, but would rather you not be able to sell the parts I designed, with what I think is extremely competitive prices, I don’t deserve the business?

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Ryan.
    #114618

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Sorry, I can’t help it. I hope you don’t think this as aggressive. I just think you are willing to be open and honest without being rude. I think you can show me some of that side.

    What doesn’t sit right with you you about how I do things? I do not share my cad files, you can’t sell my designs in any form, and I prefer you use my license for the parts you design if they are extremely similar to mine. The rest is looser than the license stipulates.

    #114623

    Jeffeb3
    Participant

    This is where the labels break down. It’s not open source, but it’s not commercial either. It’s not binary.

    Ryan’s shop isn’t trying to sell as many bolts as possible. It’s not trying to sell as many 3D printed parts as possible (or he would have been making fidget spinners). The shop is supporting these designs with CAD time, forum time, instruction time, firmware time, fringe hardware time. Ryan doesn’t sell metric hardware, but the parts fit metric. That’s not commercial, but it isn’t “open source” either.

    It’s something different. I don’t buy from hp when I can find cheaoer parts elsewhere. This is not like hp.

    #114628

    Dui, ni shuo de dui
    Participant

    Hey guys,

    Just catching up after a long while away from the forum… well that whole story sucks so much…

    I’m pretty surprised and disappointed on how much of a cunt Tom has been acting. Regardless of the legality or not of what he tried to do, this was ethically horrific. The podcast makes things very slightly more nuanced, but what Ryan deserved was flat out apologies, and we are far away from that.

    He even kept criticizing the design in the podcast, a design he didn’t even care enough to try to understand before he did the assembly videos.

    I’ve said it on an earlier thread, this guy has a nice channel when it comes to 3D printers, but he doesn’t know squat about milling. That wouldn’t be an issue if he was humble about it, but unfortunately he isn’t. He had doubts about the design from the very beginning, I was expecting his build thread to be disappointing…but I didn’t expect it to be that disappointing.

    The fact that he doesn’t have time to do things correctly – he has to release lots of content, bla bla bla – is not an excuse. It could have been an excuse if he had been humble about it, not throwing the blame on the machine’s design, but he did blame the machine, which, for a guy with that much followers, has consequences on the business of the guy in the other end trying to make a living out of it.

    The machine design was not to blame, and his design “fix” was incredibly moronic. 2mm increments for belt tightening, seriously?

    Plus he didn’t have to reinvent the wheel, plenty of belt tighteners systems exist already on thingiverse (I know that, I designed one). And all of them will work better than his. But that’s not even the issue.

    That’s a very sad ending to what could otherwise have been a very interesting series of video. I was very excited when I saw MPCNC videos coming in his channel and thought it would be very nice to see his inputs. Well, so long for that.

    Anyways, I’ve unsubscribed from his channel, at least until maybe he comes with some well deserved apology.

    Keep up the good work Ryan. I did disagree with the “no open source policy”, but I do understand it better now and disagreeing on something is not an excuse for that kind of blatant disrespect.

    All this story at least teached me something useful: I need to replace my spindle.

     

    4 users thanked author for this post.
    #114636

    Bryan
    Participant

    Certainly not saying I won’t buy from you or that there is anything wrong with your business model. All I am saying is that because it’s a business I no longer feel the obligation to buy from you like I did when I thought it was open source. If you have the best prices when I build the lowrider I’ll definitely buy from you. And as I said before I think it’s a great design.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #114649

    Heath
    Participant

    Certainly not saying I won’t buy from you or that there is anything wrong with your business model. All I am saying is that because it’s a business I no longer feel the obligation to buy from you like I did when I thought it was open source.

    Maybe it’s the capitalist in me, but that just seems backwards to me.  Although, the way Ryan has structured his projects you don’t really have an obligation to buy from him regardless.  It is NOT open source, but the STLs are available for free, the plans are available for free, the parts are all commonly available and can be easily sourced from any vendor, and you can come here and get support for free.  Or you can purchase anything from a single part to a complete kit from him.  It’s actually a very unusual business model but I think it works and is perfectly adapted to the modern internet and maker era.  I think it’s the kind of business model that should be supported.

    If you have the best prices when I build the lowrider I’ll definitely buy from you. And as I said before I think it’s a great design.

    When I was building mine, I price compared every single part I needed to buy (not only am I a capitalist, I’m cheap).  I don’t recall the breakdown (and have since misplaced or deleted my Excel sheets), but while Ryan may not have had the lowest price on every single item, the total price was about the same as buying the parts as cheaply as possible elsewhere.  Plus, there was the added convenience of getting it all in one place in one order from one vendor.  And double plus was supporting the designer.  His packing was excellent and shipping was fast as well.  I highly recommend buying what you can from him for the quality of the items, support after the sale, and principle of supporting a unique business that provides so much value.

    3 users thanked author for this post.
    #114654

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    when I thought it was open source

    But what exact part is rubbing you wrong. I mean is the actual source files or the non-commercial?

    #114655

    Aaron
    Participant

    He does have a new video out, with a raspberry pi project. He knows the raspberry pi is not open hardware right, even though the schematics are available? That the Raspberry Pi Foundation relies on the sale of raspberry pi hardware to drive their business, right?

    hmmmm…..

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Aaron.
    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #114657

    Aaron
    Participant

    Maybe that’s the way to go. V1 Engineering Foundation?

     

    Ahhh, whatever, time to move on.

    #114661

    Dirt Merchant
    Participant

    Yo Ryan,

    My suggestion is to close this thread, both here and in your own mind – the people who are likely to buy from you will still do so. I seriously doubt any real harm will come from this. Keep working on and refining your designs, keep filling orders and keep making this hobby accessible for all. Expand the lineup, and keep up with the support here and people will continue to buy and build these machines because they work, and are useful.

    Tom clearly misrepresented your project as well as your request regarding the license – and his reaction thereto was child-like and petty. Also he sucks at milling:) – and as has been said is very arrogant about how he handled this whole thing.

    Also Bryan (and most of those idiots commenting on Tom’s video) is(are) confused on what reality is. He seems to think the ethical high ground is “open source” – even though in truth when you’re buying “open source” parts they’re almost entirely produced by Chinese semi-state-owned-enterprises with questionable ethics. So his stance is that these factories are more deserving of patronage than a one-man-band fulfilling orders out of his house. Seems like some shaky ground to me.

     

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #114662

    Tim
    Participant

    Certainly not saying I won’t buy from you or that there is anything wrong with your business model. All I am saying is that because it’s a business I no longer feel the obligation to buy from you like I did when I thought it was open source. If you have the best prices when I build the lowrider I’ll definitely buy from you. And as I said before I think it’s a great design.

    The obligation you should feel should be supporting him so he can continue to work on this full time and bring improvements to the project. Like me going to Rockler (it’s the only woodworking store near me and it’s always DEAD) even though they aren’t the cheapest, so hopefully they will still be there in 2 years when I need to go get some specialty item on a Sunday afternoon.

     

    Dirt Merchant: agree on the open source stuff. If MPCNC was open source I guarantee you some numpties would be on eBay selling the printed parts for less than filament cost.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Tim.
    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #114663

    Jeffeb3
    Participant

    Let’s not attack Bryan. He has been civil and I assume honest. His perspective is useful because it doesn’t match mine. That should be welcome.

    8 users thanked author for this post.
    #114667

    K Cummins
    Participant

    when I thought it was open source

    But what exact part is rubbing you wrong. I mean is the actual source files or the non-commercial?

    I think you may be getting down in the weeds too much. Step back. As long as you’re a happy-go-lucky hacker-type sharing your designs with the world for funsies, there is a certain obligation to support you. But since you’re running a capitalistic juggernaut of a business, there is no moral obligation to you personally, so you are just like any other vendor source. There’s a binary switch getting flipped in there somewhere, even though we’re dealing with a sliding pot (a noisy one with bad solder joints).

    When you were doing it for the peeples, moar powah to yah! When you’re doing it for the Benjamins, it’s a dog-eat-dog world, and lowest bidder wins the day.

    *shrug*

    Since I, to paraphrase Ms. DuBois, rely on the kindness of others, I’ve sourced through Amazon via GCs. Otherwise, I would surely have sourced at least some of my build through Ryan. As money and circumstances provide, I plan to source what I can, and possibly donate a bit here and there.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #114668

    George M
    Participant

    I agree, time to shut this down.  Maybe an faq vs a blog post so there isn’t room for opinion?

    #114669

    Aaron
    Participant

    Let’s not attack Bryan. He has been civil and I assume honest. His perspective is useful because it doesn’t match mine. That should be welcome.

    Agreed, I think that we should take the high road vs. the opponents in Tom’s community. There’s plenty of name calling from that side. Time to move on and support the people who actually want to make stuff.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Aaron.
    #114678

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Maybe that’s the way to go. V1 Engineering Foundation?

    This was one of the first serious options someone outlined for me. I still do not fully understand it but I have not dismissed it.

     

    I think we are just trying to get Bryan’s perspective, maybe it is not the right thing. His is not the only one and trying to accommodate one might not make a difference. This is just a crazy situation I do not understand and it is hard for me not to understand things. I have taken apart anything I have ever owned since a very young age, just to see how and why. I can drop it though.

    #114681

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Sorry Dirt, too far. I removed that one. I really appreciate him coming here (could have just been a countless other comment) to offer the perspective and I think I needed to hear it. No need to take it any further.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #114683

    Dirt Merchant
    Participant

    Hah, I thought I was soft-balling that one! My perspective is aggressive.

    Don’t waste brain cells trying to understand motivations of half informed people. Drop it and move forward.

    #115090

    Migger
    Participant

    Hi

    I’ve been reading all the way through this thread. I just want to say:

    1. I’m 100% behind you here Ryan. You did nothing wrong! I also understand your urge to have everything sorted. I’m that way myself. 😉 I absolutely hate when something get’s out of control, and i can’t seem to get it fixed. Doesn’t matter if it’s personal or business.

    2. I recently build myself a MPCNC, and have been loving everything about it. The build process, the first experiences and tinkering with it, making my own add-ons and so on. (Haven’t gotten around to sharing any pics yet, sorry)

    3. This forum, or rather the people in it, are the best! The way that the conversations are kept in a sober tone, is very refreshing. Any namecalling or other improper outbursts, are swiftly and politely corrected. Love it!

    Thank you all, especially Ryan, for providing this to the world. As i get more experienced, I hope i can give some back.

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #115661

    DuhhUhh
    Participant

    Well shizzlesticks,

    What a poor state of fuckery this is…….

    Seems the new kid in town tried to steal your girlfriend and ride off into the land of bullshit and make believe.

    Too bad he forgot his ride is only 234K deep.

    Times like this call for some slight of the wavy hand business.

    Dazzle those dames with a shiny new ride with them gold or platinum exhausted tubers.

    Then we can eclipse this pion back to his hum drum 234K existence.

    There’s a good and plenty amount of hungry goldies that would raise the flag and salute.

    When all is settled, your old lady was just too danged classy to hitch a ride in some “economy” class vehicle. And she thought that crack someone made about an open the legs upgrade was a joke.

    #115676

    David Walling
    Participant

    Definitely a time for a new product.

    I suggest modifying the MPCNC with official parts for mounting a 100W CO2 laser!

    #115776

    SteevyT
    Participant

    I suggest modifying the MPCNC with official parts for mounting a 100W CO2 laser!

    Man, I ain’t interested until it’s pushing at least a kilowatt.

    #115929

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Is the MP3DP in violation of Prusa Research’s GLP3? I felt every part was different enough from all prusa’s and mendel’s, maybe not, nothing is compatible in any way. Same issue as this thread I suppose, I saw a mendel and a prusa and made a version of them.

    I will take any opinions at this point. Be honest.

    Today seems to be pester Ryan day, people seem to be digging through all of my accounts and messaging me. Shopify is even getting spammed with fake accounts for the shop all week.

    #115940

    Jeffeb3
    Participant

    Tough question. Did you import the stls into your cad? Did you take any dimensions off of his parts? Did you copy aspects of the parts, even by eye? Were those copies not purely functional?

    If so, then maybe. I am still of the opinion that no one involved is willing to pay for the legal battles to find the correct answer to any of this, and it may come down to whether the judge had a good lunch or not that day. You’re probably taking a risk by publishing prusa-like parts, but he’ll never come bother you about it.

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