Tom is about to do his build…

New Home Forum Updates Tom is about to do his build…

This topic contains 547 replies, has 75 voices, and was last updated by  K Cummins 4 days, 23 hours ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 391 through 420 (of 548 total)
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  • #114136

    Jeffeb3
    Participant

    I cringed when he cut the extra belt off. Nooo! Wait!

    He kept saying the zip ties were “properly tensioned” but didn’t adress the fact that his zip ties were 2″ long.

    #114139

    Jamie
    Participant

    Tom needs to understand tension is not stiffness. At least one side needs a short zip tie (as Ryan has said countless times) to have good stiffness.

    #114140

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    He could have at least added the secondary ziptie as I have show to stop the flexing issue. The very next picture in my instructions….but too late now. Easier to design a new part with no tension adjustmen in less than 2mm increments.

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #114173

    Infnorm
    Participant

    This is long, but I think after reading this whole forum, lots of twitter, and youtube comments, I think I have a bit of new insight (maybe).

    I think the thing to realize that Tom is really not a full-time engineer, at least not anymore. He doesn’t really take the time to think things through. His major focus is to keep a stream of interesting content. This kind of incentivizes superficial projects where he can do something, get a proof of concept and move-on. He couldn’t be bothered to check the forums or think things through deeply, because he has his primary goal which is making good entertainment. Most of his viewers will never go deep into making a CNC. He was making many statements in that testing the machine episode that even the most green machinist would have known is not quite right. At the end of the day he’s a shoot from the hip kind of guy now, even if he wasn’t back when he had a job. That is his job now. It’s very similar to the things I see from Great Scott! and EEVblog. They are constantly asked to do projects that take tons of planning and they say, I can’t be bothered to do that much work for a single video. I love their channels, and I understand. I think they are optimizing for the needs of paying their bills. Most of the time I want that, but that means that there is a space for youtube videos that go through all the details.

    More importantly it highlights the difference between Ryan and Tom. Tom can afford to give away his designs, because that is not the value he is monetizing. He is monetizing the TV. That’s the most myopic thing about how he dealt with this. He might say, well Ryan “you can go become a youtuber.” But really, if Ryan did that exactly how Thomas did, he would trend toward these sampler type projects.

    Thomas thought about doing a OPCNC, but I think realistically he wouldn’t have really followed through to finish it. I don’t really see any evidence he has designed any kind of significant thing in the past. His Thingiverse is mostly trivial things (does he have another repo somewhere). It’s hard work not just designing a simple parametric part but also testing it over and over. That’s the part about building the MPCNC that struck me. The subtlety of actually making a design work is all there. That is design intent, that is what Ryan has, but it requires lots of attention and thinking. This is not what Thomas is necessarily good at or at the very least, doesn’t want to or have time to do. So, while it is possible someone would have picked up the start from Thomas and made it into a working design, I think it wouldn’t have been that likely. Maybe he will prove me wrong, but I think there is a structural barrier that is his current monetization that prevents him.

    He should have been able to make his machine work. He shouldn’t have had to design new parts. He proceeded on the assumption his one part was automatically better without testing it. I think he just doesn’t have time.

    And this gets to the hitch of it. Youtubers that do superficial put it together projects work very hard. Thomas works very hard. I think he is good at what he does, but he also has to respect what people like Ryan and the open source community do for him. They give him a well-spring of ideas to monetize and to share with the community. It is an ecosystem that both are benefiting from. I really wish he would learn to think from Ryan’s point of view and represent that. He needs to approach his job with responsibility.

    But where does this leave Ryan. I think reputation is a very delecate thing. I hope enough people will continue making MPCNC’s and posting on YouTube. The “making stuff” series is excellent. I originally felt bad that Thomas had beat me to a project that I’ve been squeezing time in to make for the last 4 months, but my machine works, and he gave up on his and then sullied the reputation of someone who has spent more time directly helping people on their forum than almost anyone who makes a pure open source project. The world is littered with abandoned full open-source projects. I think basically Ryan’s model is closest to dual-license models that Qt and Asterisk used.

    Cheers, thank you for all your work Ryan and to everybody else on this forum.

    #114174

    Aaron
    Participant

    Ryan genuinely appreciates and accepts contributions from us. He is frequently asking questions in public and somehow, even after the debates, staying friends with us. So that’s where the dictator part runs him the wrong way.

    However, calling yourself BDFL has one huge advantage, it’s under-promising and over-delivering. If someone thought you were going to be a dictator about it, and you ended up being nice, then you have just exceeded their expectations.

    What about Butthole Dictator For Life?

    3 users thanked author for this post.
    #114180

    Jeffeb3
    Participant

    I would call myself BDFL:

    Barely Doing any Fabrication Lately.

    #114194

    Jamie
    Participant

    This is long, …

    Insightful post and well said. Thank you.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Jamie.
    #114227

    Alex
    Participant

    I’ve watched Tom’s video, read the twitter feed, and read this thread since the 11th. I’m not sure who is right legally,
    but Tom’s part looks incredibly similar to the part it’s replacing. Nobody would be able to tell if Tom took the STL file and just made modifications to it or “started from scratch” in this case. And given that Tom was planning to basically take Ryan’s whole design and try to open source it, even if it would make it more accessible like he claimed it would, I completely understand Ryan’s point of view and his actions were completely justifiable.

    I’ve been a patron for Tom, but have canceled it. I noticed that Angus from Maker’s Muse also left a completely
    unprofessional and spiteful comment, so I canceled my patreon membership for him too. It’s not hard to disagree
    and still be professional about it. The money that I was giving them is now going to you Ryan. Thank you for supporting this community and making CNCing (up to giant 4′ by 8′ sheets of wood) accessible to me and so many others.

    10 users thanked author for this post.
    #114228

    Rick
    Participant

    Not to stir the pot, but link to what Angus said?

    Just wondering if I need to unsubscribe, unpatreon and stop supporting/viewing more people because what this all boils down to, in my mind, is as simple as “Ryan made this.  Ryan decides the license.  If you can’t respect that you deserve zero respect.”

    There are a lot of variations of open source licenses and a lot of debates over which is best and why, but its nearly always at least respected.  The open source movement created those licenses under the assumption they would be respected, spiritually and legally.

    This has been one of the worst displays of arrogance, entitlement and gross disrespect I’ve seen in the open source and/or maker community in quite some time and I’m ready to just trash anyone who’s acting like a temper tantrum throwing baby over it.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #114240

    Aaron
    Participant

    Not to stir the pot, but link to what Angus said?

    Just wondering if I need to unsubscribe, unpatreon and stop supporting/viewing more people because what this all boils down to, in my mind, is as simple as “Ryan made this. Ryan decides the license. If you can’t respect that you deserve zero respect.”

    There are a lot of variations of open source licenses and a lot of debates over which is best and why, but its nearly always at least respected. The open source movement created those licenses under the assumption they would be respected, spiritually and legally.

    This has been one of the worst displays of arrogance, entitlement and gross disrespect I’ve seen in the open source and/or maker community in quite some time and I’m ready to just trash anyone who’s acting like a temper tantrum throwing baby over it.

    It’s one of the top comments on the video. Basically said something like

    “Yet again an aspect of the 3D Printing Community eats itself… >_>”

    When he sells models with non commercial licenses.
    3 users thanked author for this post.
    #114241

    Rick
    Participant

    Ohhh right, I do remember seeing that.  I just wasn’t sure which way it was targeted and didn’t put much thought in to it.  Thanks/apologies!

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #114293

    Aaron
    Participant

    https://all3dp.com/2/mostly-printed-cnc-mpcnc-all-you-need-to-know/

     

    with all the hubbub, did I miss this being posted on the forums? Looks like they actually did some research this time.

    4 users thanked author for this post.
    #114548

    geodave
    Participant

    I have been out of town for a week, but watching this thread on my phone.  I thought it was interesting in his last video, “Whose design even is this?”, that he did not mention once about a potential problem with his spindle when several people in this forum have mentioned it.  Seems like he would have tried some other type of router to rule that out, but I guess he did not have one.  I gave my 1st thumbs down to a youtube video on this last video.  I also noticed he printed that modified part with the bottom mounting holes along the z-axis.  Is that correct printing orientation for that part?  I am sure he printed it that way to keep from having to print with supports.

    I will probably unsubscribe to him after making a comment on his video of making an espresso cup with HTPLA.

    #114552

    Bill
    Participant

    I’m catching up as well. Wow, there’s been a lot going on. I was really surprised with Tom’s last video, it sounded very school yardish to me, sour grapes. I believe his biggest problem with his build was the spindle mount, but now it’s a bit of a moot point since it’s unlikely he’ll ever try to fix it.
    Ryan, please feel free to run your potential blog post by me via email, I’d love the chance to comment…

    #114562

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Well there is more to it now. He has another chat about it in the meltzone podcast, about 1/4 the way in or so.

    #114563

    David Walling
    Participant

    Makes me wonder what the slander laws really state.

    #114564

    Tim
    Participant

    Well there is more to it now. He has another chat about it in the meltzone podcast, about 1/4 the way in or so.

    23 minutes in for anyone who wants to listen.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #114565

    Jeffeb3
    Participant

    Seems easier than finding the podcast.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #114570

    Jeffeb3
    Participant

    This seems pretty reasonable, actually. If he had started with this tone, it might have been just a missed opportunity. It would have been nice for him to go the other way and maybe apologize for the damage done. But I think he just wants out of this minefield, like the rest of us.

    #114571

    David Walling
    Participant

    That made it look like he had a little remorse for the way things went on his last video.

    Hopefully things can go away at this point.

    #114572

    Tim
    Participant

    Not much to say about it. Hopefully that is the end of it and we can go back to stuff as usual.

    #114573

    George M
    Participant

    He clarified his position very well there.  I still think a blog post from you clarifying your position and what you would prefer people do and not do would be helpful and then everyone can just move on.

    Let’s face it, 90% of the YouTube commenters were never going to build one anyway.  If anything maybe there are some that are continuing or starting their build who will make content that wouldn’t have before, because they don’t want his build to be the final word on the design.

    #114574

    thesfreader
    Participant

    Yep, and quite a shame there’s no mention of the podcast “take” in the official channel.

    #114575

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    I have tried to write a few times. I do not have a good enough understanding of the issue really. I either apologize for drama, layout “my side”, or just make a 3 page tangent history lesson. It just doesn’t come out right. Easier for me to just dig in and us these feelings to make things better and let actions speak louder than words.

    If I can write at some point the current suggestion is try to just point out why this project/place/team is amazing regardless of legal opinions.

    Hate mail is slowing. One this morning was “You are stupid for saying you are open source and acting like you are not.” I replied to that one, no reply back.  Only one person asked specific questions before I shipped their order. They chose to continue with the the order after I gave my answers. So orders have slowed but hopefully they are not stopping.

    #114576

    K Cummins
    Participant

    FWIW, I’ll be needing steppers and end mills at some point in the near to middlin’ future… 😉

    #114577

    Tim
    Participant

    Might be getting an order from me pretty soon. Trying to decide what direction I want to go….

    #114578

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    There is a huge upside for hobby CNC in all of this. Maybe now we won’t be the only group doing Marlin edits and post processors!

    #114589

    thesfreader
    Participant

    Ryan, if I may suggest you ask Tom to post on his “main” channel (or add to his pinned message under the  “MPCNC conclusion video) a link to the Metzone podcats (with start time), I think it could at least  remove some of the “end word” going to that last video and the all “nasty comments” that are under it.

    (Any idea how it would be perceived, people ?)

     

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  thesfreader.
    #114591

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    I have zero connection outside of comments with him. He has never responded to any of my attempts to privately contact him.

    It would be nice for people to hear him admit to going overboard to prove a point, sucks that such an amazingly positive, giving, CNC community needed to catch the brunt of proving that point.

    I do not think I have said it but, sorry you all needed to be even remotely associated with what turned out to be negative drama.

    #114592

    Rick
    Participant

    I watched the podcast video above, I’m still not happy.

    It wouldn’t be hard to take from that conversation that the mpcnc doesn’t work well as is.  Aluminum was specifically mentioned (may or may not do aluminum).  I think there are at least a few of us using them on aluminum just fine with zero mods.  That’s pretty much all my mpcnc’s do throughout the week, aluminum.

    Ignoring the licensing drama, the hurt feels and everything else I think that is my biggest issue through all of this.  The capabilities of the machine are being misrepresented and a lot of people that have never used one (that was built correctly) are now forming the opinion that it doesn’t work well in general, and/or its a crapshoot on whether or not it’d do aluminum.

    They’re wrong. They’re ignoring the great many of us that use these machines and acting like one famous youtuber’s failure to follow instructions is representative of the machine’s capability.  That just bugs me.  It’d bug me as a generic review even without the rest of the attached licensing drama.

     

     

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