Tom is about to do his build…

New Home Forum Updates Tom is about to do his build…

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  • #113970

    Anttix
    Participant

    You may not need coolant, but you need the feedrate. Sorry, unless your mpcnc is rigid enough to push 300ipm (as per the datron paper) without vibrating and breaking the bit, those techniques are best applied to the really rigid machines. We already know that faster spindle speed requires more feedrate. Most run the mpcnc at 35ipm, lol.

    Feed rates are crazy in that paper, true however Datron machines run at 50k RPM and they are not actually that rigid. Their machines are far less rigid than “traditional” CNC mills. When cutting forces go down then vibrations go down as  well (unless spindle itself vibrates more at higher speeds).

    My theory right now is that with 30k spindle we may already be past the “death valley” for some materials without even knowing it while with a 10k spindle we’re in it.

    Wild speculation, I know. I should run the numbers.

    • This reply was modified 2 months ago by  Anttix.
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    #113973

    Aaron
    Participant

    Joe’s CNC does a similar model. Buying the plans gets you access to the forums, where there are a ton of build logs, even dating back to 2008 ish. The problem is other than that, it’s pretty slow, and the people putting together those machines are pretty handy. I’ve seen maybe 10 different types of breakout boards, various driver systems, even grbl, but no one asks how to set the steps or wire it up, or even software questions.

     

    The bar for entry into CNC via V1 is very low, so we get lots of people who have no idea where to start. Definitely a complicated choice!

    3 users thanked author for this post.
    #113974

    Tim
    Participant

    Joe’s CNC does a similar model. Buying the plans gets you access to the forums, where there are a ton of build logs, even dating back to 2008 ish. The problem is other than that, it’s pretty slow, and the people putting together those machines are pretty handy. I’ve seen maybe 10 different types of breakout boards, various driver systems, even grbl, but no one asks how to set the steps or wire it up, or even software questions.

    The bar for entry into CNC via V1 is very low, so we get lots of people who have no idea where to start. Definitely a complicated choice!

    Funny you mention Joe. I hadn’t seen his machines until yesterday and I’m thinking that might be my next step.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #113975

    Mmmfishtacos
    Participant

    I’m tempted to do a live stream. I’d probably only bring about 20 people but at least it would show how to build one correctly.

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #113979

    K Cummins
    Participant

    I looked at Joe’s once upon a time. Due to my multi-tasking process (extreme time-slicing), I couldn’t justify buying plans that would sit, unused, for goodness knows how long. Instead, I finally got someone to get me a 3D printer, and printed off the parts for a MPCNC, that sat in a box for goodness knows how long… Until I got an Amazon GC and decided to source more of the guts of my build. Now I need to either wait for Christmas for another GC haul, or suck it up and make the spend for the steppers…

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #113980

    Aaron
    Participant

    You may not need coolant, but you need the feedrate. Sorry, unless your mpcnc is rigid enough to push 300ipm (as per the datron paper) without vibrating and breaking the bit, those techniques are best applied to the really rigid machines. We already know that faster spindle speed requires more feedrate. Most run the mpcnc at 35ipm, lol.

    Feed rates are crazy in that paper, true however Datron machines run at 50k RPM and they are not actually that rigid. Theor machines are fare less rigid than “traditional” CNC mills. When cutting forces go down then vibrations go down as well (unless spindle itself vibrates).

    My theory right now is that with 30k spindle we may already be past the “death valley” for some materials without even knowing it while with a 10k spindle we’re in it.

    Wild speculation, I know. I should run the numbers.

    Still much much more rigid than an mpcnc or LR2.

     

    The datron spindles also have much more power to keep them from bogging down, as well as feedback of some sort. Try it on your mpcnc and let’s see how it works because if you figure out a way to make your mpcnc hit the right speeds, with enough torque on 76 oz-in nema17 driving belts, Ryan can go fully closed source  since he would be selling kits every second of every day.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #113981

    Aaron
    Participant

    Joe’s CNC does a similar model. Buying the plans gets you access to the forums, where there are a ton of build logs, even dating back to 2008 ish. The problem is other than that, it’s pretty slow, and the people putting together those machines are pretty handy. I’ve seen maybe 10 different types of breakout boards, various driver systems, even grbl, but no one asks how to set the steps or wire it up, or even software questions.

    The bar for entry into CNC via V1 is very low, so we get lots of people who have no idea where to start. Definitely a complicated choice!

    Funny you mention Joe. I hadn’t seen his machines until yesterday and I’m thinking that might be my next step.

    I have an alternate plan to build the carriages for the hybrid that are much easier and only requires a drill presz, if you’re interested, there’s a video on YouTube by Peter passuelo where he does the new Y carriages.

     

    Interestingly enough, Joe’s original machine, the JGRO used skate bearings on emt/gas pipe. He used a split carriage to clamp the bearings. Maybe that’s the solution to the different pipe sizes? Or maybe Ryan did that before I started with the mpcnc, lol.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #113983

    frosty
    Participant

    I’m tempted to do a live stream.

    My vote would be against a live-stream, actually. There’s too much dead time for people who want to come along later and follow along, in my opinion. A useful reference video would be edited to be as tight as possible so that someone following along only has to pause the video occasionally to catch up (tighten the other four screws after seeing the first one done, for example) rather than needing to hunt around in the video for the next useful moment.

    This build does a pretty good job on the time economy front. Doing voiceover really helps because you don’t have to focus on talking and working at the same time, and you can add in useful comments “in post”. The only thing I might change here would be to break the build up into separate smaller videos to focus on each assembly in isolation.

    This build series for the Tevo Tarantula splits the video into 24 separate steps (each corresponding to a section of the build manual). Each video starts with a brief orientation (what page we’re on), a parts inventory for the step with required tools, and then he walks through the steps needed to complete it. He has some overlay test with extra info which is also helpful.

    4 users thanked author for this post.
    #113984

    Paul Campbell
    Participant

    Ryan,

    A while back you mentioned that nobody has taken the time to explain how open source can sustain your income. I thought I should come up with a few ideas to ponder, especially given the discussion on paid support. Sorry if I ramble, but this is off the top of my head based on things that have worked for organisations I’ve associated with before.

    I wouldn’t charge directly for support. That creates a sense of entitlement which could really tie up all your resources. Some customers will be really, really hard work.

    If you’re looking at how to fund a move to open source or indeed just a way to suppliment income, then the obvious first thing to do is monetise the web site and forum through adverts – you can even tie in “ad-free” access at a premium (or free with shop purchases). That way ALL support (from anyone via the forum) is paid support. Also, should any floods of visitors arrive having bought knock-off parts/kits – then at least they are also generating you a little income. You can use a platform like Ezoic and they’ll pretty much handle the adverts for you (there are usually zero changes required to your actual site as they inject the ads while acting as a front-end server. You do need to modify your nameservers though). Easy money if you have the traffic. There are membership plugins that can handle the nuances of premium/standard access and even allow member-only, premium content.

    Patreon can also be used to generate income but that really needs you to ask people to support you, and I get the impression that’s not something you’re comfortable doing. I understand that, but it’s worth considering.

    You could also build a network of “approved” add-on suppliers or some other form of official stamp or accreditation. It may seem counter-intuitive but having an “approved” list would allow those you want associated (and thus promoting) your products and related services to do so, while giving you a way to object/block/demand removal of folks you don’t want. They can’t use the badge and branding without accreditation. DOwnside is you’ll have to police it, which I guess you’re having to do anyway.

    Lastly you would need to look at providing value-added services like one-to-one consultancy/build advice and maybe also bespoke part design – there are many folks who’ll want to change their machines but who have no knowledge or skills to do so and that’s where you can take advantage, providing such things at a premium.

    There’s probably more 😉

    Paul

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #113986

    Gene buckle
    Participant

    @frosty – that’s what I did a few years ago when I wrote the docs for the Rostock MAX v2.  At the end of each chapter was a “checkpoint” video that showed the results of that step.  That would actually be a pretty good idea for a future MPCNC documentation update…

    @Ryan: If you’re interested in that kind of thing, PM me and we can work out the details.  I think you’ve got a pretty good handle on how I write docs. 😀

     

    g.

    #113993

    Heath
    Participant

    I honestly don’t think there is anything wrong with your current model.  I don’t know of another company with the same model, but I like it.  Open source is great and I use a lot of open source software in my job.  But I also use a lot of closed source, proprietary software.  I don’t mind paying for tools I want/need to use, but one thing I hate is the subscription model.  I work in IT and I’m a Cisco fanboy, but the more they go to a subscription model for everything, the more I’m looking at other vendors.  But I digress.

     

    I think your current model is confusing to some open source fanatics like Tom.  Since you’ve released the STLs and people can build a MPCNC without ever giving you a dime, I think people get locked into the open source mindset.  For instance, Tom’s tweet where he said, “Since you consider even a from-scratch replacement a derivative of your design, the only allowable license for the ‘derived’ part would be CC-BY-NC, with us both holding copyright to the respective areas. Hence, do not use my design commercially.”  When discussing this in he video, he said he didn’t care if his part made it into the official design and being sold as an official MPCNC part and that he made that demand to show the absurdity.  But what it really shows is that he doesn’t understand the V1/MPCNC model.  He’s mentally locked onto the open source model.  There’s no chance his part would have ever “made it into the official design and sold as the MPCNC” to begin with because that’s not how the MPCNC is designed or how the project operates.  But he didn’t understand that and neither do a not of other people taking his side.  And that’s the main reason I think you should make your blog post explaining things more clearly from your view.

     

    Anyway, I had more thoughts and points to make, but don’t remember them now.  Probably for the best anyway.  I’ve been on Twitter more the last 3 days than I have all the time before that combined.  And I remember why.  People are just nasty and mean an ignorant and hear with the intent to argue rather than listen with the intent to learn and Twitter seems to amplify that.

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #114000

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    I am writing something to try and define the issue. It is too long and might ask a few of you to help we with it but trying to get something cohesive out of this is hard.

    I do like the current model, subscriptions are just a no go for me as well. There could be something else but what we currently have is so stupidly close to working I am pissed that I can not put my finger on the issue. Being forced to define the problem as I see it is helping me get to the point I think. Being forced to define what I consider okay is hard as well.

    I am stupidly hopeful that if we can solve this issue it could stand as a model for other to follow as many of you are pointing out.

    3 users thanked author for this post.
    #114006

    frosty
    Participant

    A term that may (or may not) help in all of this is “Benevolent Dictator For Life” (BDFL). Many projects have take that organizational approach and while the results are mixed there are plenty of success stories.

    Ryan is free to correct me, but I think that characterizes how he has been running these projects. For the benefit of all, welcoming of all input, but it is still his creation/baby/brainchild/product and his word is law regarding what happens to the official development roadmap, who can use the trademarks, etc.

    It seems the biggest concerns here are cannibalization of sales and loss of control. If Ryan continues to defend his trademarks and can keep enough brand visibility/credibility to keep “MPCNC” the name thought of when someone says “Conduit-based CNC Platform” (a la Xerox, Kleenex, etc.) he won’t be losing significant sales of printed parts (or hardware kits, I’d wager) to 3rd rate outlets foreign or domestic. Plus, the same copyright realities that allow the workalikes in the first place allow Ryan to pick and choose any improvement from the “community version” (if any ever arise) and incorporate it back into the “official” release.

    It would still be nice to come up with another revenue stream or three for V1 other than parts/merch sales but like most of us I can’t think of much that doesn’t change the community dynamics that already exist and (mostly) work.

    #114010

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Ugggg that has a horrible title and it does seem to be were I lean. Wow, that makes me actually reconsider a bit. I instantly thought of Linus T and yup…his name is on there. Shoot is that who I sound like. His work seems amazing but for a outsiders perspective he does not inspire the want to duplicate that.

    #114013

    K Cummins
    Participant

    Ryan,

    It’s an unfortunate title for the way things are currently working. Linus’ issues have more to do with his personality (and how it meshes/conflicts with the other personalities in the FLOSS/OSS ecosphere) than the organizational model. For where V1/MPCNC is right now, BDFL is the proper organizational model.

    Don’t start freaking out and try to change because some semi-famous asshat does his douchebaggery in some way that is similar to how you do your daily business. From all I can tell, you’re doing it right (or at least the absolute best you can, which is a damned sight better than most).

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #114015

    Garrett Wood
    Participant

    Well I finally (painstakingly) have caught up on this thread. After reading everyone’s thoughts I don’t think I have anything to add.  I’ve been a follower of both Tom’s videos and the MPCNC for a long time and I hate to see that this is how the series turned out.

    However the legal technicalities work out, I think Tom is in the wrong and I no longer follow his channel.

    Additionally I just finished placing my order for a V1 Engineering shirt.

    I thought my MPCNC build was an awesome project and I am looking forward to seeing where it goes in the future.

    Keep up the good work!

     

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #114022

    Tealfixie
    Participant

    Hey Ryan,

    As someone who recently completed building a MPCNC, I did find areas of the instruction that were unclear or inadequate. As an entrepreneur who is always juggling 10 different things throughout the day, I completely understand that there is an economy to one person’s output. Updating wordpress or whatever this site is ran on can easily get buried in the to-do list. Not to mention that each particular board seems to have its own unique instruction.

    I think it would be a good idea to crowdsource the instruction/assembly content to those who have had experience with building. What could make this project stand apart from any competing open source  project is ultimately the community. I saw that the forums were active, and that you actively participate, and it was an easy decision to proceed with the build. Hopefully we can call give back somehow to get more people to buy more kits from you.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #114023

    George M
    Participant

    I think anblog post explaining v1s business would be helpful, bringing in the Twitter debate would not.  The people who would go to your blog as those on the fence to begin with, those who’ve sided with Tom have made their choice and you’ll never change that.  You have to make that realization and stop interacting with that small percentage of people.

    I think you have to quit trying to make the 3d printing community your market.  The maker community is your market.  They are going to go to the official source because wasting time figuring out how to make it all work in the long run costs them money in lost revenue.

    When you look at YouTube and the maker channels most have xcarves and prusas because they can quickly get support and answers when thinks don’t work. Well, that and the fact that inventables sent machines out to them as a sponsor.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #114029

    Jeffeb3
    Participant

    Ryan genuinely appreciates and accepts contributions from us. He is frequently asking questions in public and somehow, even after the debates, staying friends with us. So that’s where the dictator part runs him the wrong way.

    However, calling yourself BDFL has one huge advantage, it’s under-promising and over-delivering. If someone thought you were going to be a dictator about it, and you ended up being nice, then you have just exceeded their expectations.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #114030

    K Cummins
    Participant

    Ryan genuinely appreciates and accepts contributions from us. He is frequently asking questions in public and somehow, even after the debates, staying friends with us. So that’s where the dictator part runs him the wrong way.

    However, calling yourself BDFL has one huge advantage, it’s under-promising and over-delivering. If someone thought you were going to be a dictator about it, and you ended up being nice, then you have just exceeded their expectations.

    Plus, the hats and medals make all the ladies swoon!

    May have to reinstall Tropico when I get home…

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #114056

    Geoffrey
    Participant

    Patreon can also be used to generate income but that really needs you to ask people to support you, and I get the impression that’s not something you’re comfortable doing. I understand that, but it’s worth considering.

    From what I understand he’s got a massive one person Patreon following so far… Where are the rest of you??? 😀

    #114058

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    It isn’t about the size, of the following it is about the quality!

    #114059

    Geoffrey
    Participant

    I honestly don’t think there is anything wrong with your current model. I don’t know of another company with the same model, but I like it. Open source is great and I use a lot of open source software in my job. But I also use a lot of closed source, proprietary software. I don’t mind paying for tools I want/need to use, but one thing I hate is the subscription model. I work in IT and I’m a Cisco fanboy, but the more they go to a subscription model for everything, the more I’m looking at other vendors. But I digress.

    Subscription models have a place, like with MS Office or Windows.  They aren’t tied to pushing a new version every year or two to keep the revenue stream flowing, that way they can develop more organically and update as things change.  Look at Simplify3D, they have gone from being the best albeit expensive slicer around to being way behind the free options and still expensive.  Imagine what they could do for $5/mo instead of a lifetime license for $150  Just my $0.02

    I’ve been on Twitter more the last 3 days than I have all the time before that combined. And I remember why. People are just nasty and mean an ignorant and hear with the intent to argue rather than listen with the intent to learn and Twitter seems to amplify that.

    Holy crap right?!  I’ve been at the depths of YouTube comments trying to at least be a voice of reason… and it’s been a somewhat entertaining mental exercise, but it’s killing me!!

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #114060

    Geoffrey
    Participant

    It isn’t about the size, of the following it is about the quality!

    Hey, you have to start somewhere right?

    Patreon #1 isn’t planning on quitting anytime soon.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #114063

    Jeffeb3
    Participant

    Subscription models have a place, like with MS Office or Windows. They aren’t tied to pushing a new version every year or two to keep the revenue stream flowing, that way they can develop more organically and update as things change. Look at Simplify3D, they have gone from being the best albeit expensive slicer around to being way behind the free options and still expensive. Imagine what they could do for $5/mo instead of a lifetime license for $150 Just my $0.02

    Software as a service and hardware as a service are huge business buzzwords. It helps a lot because the development is always risky and one major version flop can really put a cash crunch on a normal retail business. If they are a month late with the next version and it’s a service model, they are doing fine.

    I don’t mind the service model, I think the incentives are in the right place. They have to keep me happy instead of just looking like they will keep me happy.

    My big pet peeve is that I think it should be illegal to have more obstacles to cancelling than subscribing. If I can sign up for comcast internet online and get a package in the mail, why can’t I cancel online and return a box to my mailbox?

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #114079

    Barry
    Participant

    If I can sign up for comcast internet online and get a package in the mail, why can’t I cancel online and return a box to my mailbox?

    Heh, I have a client that has a pile of cable boxes in the corner of their server room.  They were leftovers from the previous tenants.  No one takes the damn things back!

    #114080

    I would like to comment on the value added component of Ryan’s work. The 3D printed parts are very important and the heart of the project and of course the key component of Tom’s argument.

    In fact, the pre-flashed boards and wiring harnesses allow an ease of entry that has been overlooked. Take any YouTube video documenting a home brew CNC. ThisOldTony has a good one. I am very fond of Educating Savvas. He began with an X-Carve and over the past three years has documented his education in CNCs. His video from today is a great, although very detailed, description of using a Duet 2 wifi board. No one really has a video documenting a project that I could really duplicate so easily for so little money. Sure, there are lots of CNC projects to choose from, but Ryan’s is unique.

    Someone with little or no experience in CNCs could use V1 engineering’s builds to get an inexpensive machine done. The information provided by Ryan and the forum is extremely valuable. To not honor the huge amount of effort that has gone into this by agreeing to abide by restrictions that are meant to safeguard this project is just plain rude.

    5 users thanked author for this post.
    #114087

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Thanks for that…and thanks for the link, I subscribed. Quality video, can’t wait to see what else he has.

    #114094

    Anthony Pearce
    Participant

    Someone with little or no experience in CNCs could use V1 engineering’s builds to get an inexpensive machine done. The information provided by Ryan and the forum is extremely valuable. To not honor the huge amount of effort that has gone into this by agreeing to abide by restrictions that are meant to safeguard this project is just plain rude.

    This is exactly what brought me to the MPCNC and agree totally with the final statement.

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #114130

    Mmmfishtacos
    Participant

    Can anyone tell me why is zip ties are so long? Or am I Screenshot_20190914-145612_YouTube

    seeing things?

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