Tom is about to do his build…

New Home Forum Updates Tom is about to do his build…

This topic contains 547 replies, has 75 voices, and was last updated by  K Cummins 4 days, 23 hours ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 331 through 360 (of 548 total)
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  • #113872

    Barry
    Participant

    I’ve said it before, if it said “Prusia” on the side of it, it would have been all kittens and rainbows, no matter who designed it.  Dude’s a shill, don’t worry about it.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #113873

    Anttix
    Participant

    As for parametric CAD. Yes I feel it is just extremely hard to have parts with the embellishments the current version have and be easily fully parametric. Even if you did leave room for some crazy hardware, then someone will want washers “because plastic parts should have washer” …

    I guess I have to spin my question another way. How can community help to make your current release process smoother and easier for supported hardware and three existing rail sizes? Not new crazy stuff but to make it faster and easier to release updates to the current product lineup.

    Maybe it’s some clever CAD trickery. However it may also be a community process. Taking an analogy from software world,  each rail size could have its own “maintainer”. Once you make a change to the “main” version, maintainers will take the file and adjust it to the size they are maintaining. Check that everything looks fine, maybe print one out, mount on a machine, cut some stuff and if it doesn’t crash, clear for release.

     

    Community can also help with scripting  STL exports or whatever it is that you feel like is a time sink every time you make a release.

    #113874

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Maybe moving instructions to something like github where people can contribute as they wish but only a few could actually grant accses/commit changes it would also be nice if they were available on the site as well. Maybe the BOM as well. As you can imagine I make a part, release it and instantly I get questions, and still have to deal with all of that as well. STLS are fairly easy to export, I just orient and re-save them after. Then update thingiverse.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #113875

    Squid
    Participant

    Hi – I have been toying with an MPCNC for a while, and Tom’s videos sparked my interests again to the point I now have approval from my wife to proceed with a build!

    Ryan – I don’t necessarily agree with your license, but the way you have handled yourself through this has been admirable, and certainly hasn’t put me off a build.

    Tom live-streamed a build and got a poor result – at some level he will be embarrassed (and hurt or otherwise upset), and it is always easier to blame others (or the design) when things go wrong than to objectively assess the problem.  He has then gone on to have a hissy fit/tantrum over the licensing.  When a toddler has a tantrum, you don’t reason with the tantrum – you comfort them and then try to address the root cause of the tantrum not the tantrum itself.

    I posted on twitter (@cRigter) I feel a large part of the problem has been communication – of which I think Tom has done very poorly, but I’d like to suggest another approach to a blog post that may help de-escalate things: Don’t get into licensing, don’t enter into further discussion about what is a derivative etc doing so will only cause it to spiral further, instead – offer once more to help him openly and publicly.

    • Say you are sorry his build didn’t go well, offer to help to get to the bottom of why it didn’t work – after all a big part of your project if to have something that can work for everyone and his experience was not what you’d like to see.
    • Work with him and test his design (hint: I believe if it had solved the problem we’d have seen it doing so in the latest video), is there a scientific way you can test the difference between the different belt anchors, does one introduce measurably more slop than the other, and if there is a difference does his have any notable impact on removing the chatter?
    • Even offer to consider integrating his design it into the project if:
      1. it works to solve to problem; and
      2. it meets the design goals of the project (or can be made to); and maybe
      3. you can agree for a way forward on licensing this part
    • See if you can work out a way to test a known router on his machine, is there a forum member near him that can loan him one, can you accept some donations to buy him a better one, I’d chip in if he’d agree that he would use it and/or otherwise get to the bottom of the problem.
    • If all that fails, perhaps see if you can crowd-source a flight for you (or someone) to go over and work with him.

    I know much of this help is there implicitly (and in some cases was offered explicitly), but if you make the public offer then he either accepts or you can walk away knowing you have been the bigger person, you have tried to solve the root of the problem and if he continues to be childish about it, then so be-it.

    Of course I’m a newb here, so also feel free to completely ignore me 🙂

    Now onto the real question for me, MPCNC vs low rider? and will my wife notice if I “accidentally” build both? 🙂

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #113876

    Aaron
    Participant

    On Tom borrowing a known router to test, he has a Makita 0700 from his other CNC projects. It’s a fair bit lighter/smaller than a 611, and I think it’s just fine for use in an mpcnc.

    #113877

    Gene buckle
    Participant

    So if I were to live stream a build (using the right fasteners) of a machine with a sane build volume (say 18×18), would anyone be interested? 🙂

     

    g.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #113881

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    You already built a monster! Actually didn’t you use a similar spindle did it work? I have mine now but no desire to test it at the moment. I know I need to, to help people make better choices in the future (if there is one).

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #113883

    Anttix
    Participant

    As you can imagine I make a part, release it and instantly I get questions, and still have to deal with all of that as well …

    I wonder if it’s possible to borrow the idea of “unstable” and “stable” release channels from the software world to reduce the noise. It is generally accepted that you’re on your own if you’re using a pre-release version. Alternatively there can be a non-public “early access” channel for maintainers and trusted power users where new parts are released for testing and adaptation before they are deemed stable.

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #113889

    Anttix
    Participant

    Off-topic:

    I have a theory about that spindle. I recently stumbled upon a high-speed machining whitepaper by Datron and they claim that slow speeds are really not suitable for machining with small tools. They state that high spindle speed reduces chip load which in turn reduces cutting forces.

    If that applies to wood as well then 10k RPM spindle may be too slow to be a good fit for MPCNC and a 30k cut-out tool is a lot better choice even if it doesn’t have speed control.

    https://www.datron.com/Content/DATRON_HSM_White_Paper.pdf

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #113896

    Jeffeb3
    Participant

    Maybe moving instructions to something like github where people can contribute as they wish but only a few could actually grant accses/commit changes it would also be nice if they were available on the site as well. Maybe the BOM as well.

    I really like this idea. Open a new topic if you’re interested and we can find the right set of tools. It would be nice to have git involved, for forking, and pull requests, but also have a wiki editor, since that will increase the number of contributors.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #113897

    Chad
    Participant

    Went and posted a 5 start review on Google.

    https://g.co/kgs/nts1AS

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #113909

    Rene
    Participant

    Hey all, had a blast building  MPCNC a few months back (though haven’t had a chance to get it too dirty yet).
    Just wanted to say thanks to Ryan for your hard work in this project and making it available for others to use for free.

    I also love the idea of collaborative instructions on something like github or the like.  Just from my own personal experience there’s a ton of really useful information in the forums that’s kind of buried for newcomers. Plus there’s already plenty of great people who help on the forum with tons of knowledge.

    P.S. Just a heads up that the current video for MPCNC getting started in the V1 Engineering Media Section is Tom’s last video.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #113910

    Aaron
    Participant

    Off-topic:

    I have a theory about that spindle. I recently stumbled upon a high-speed machining whitepaper by Datron and they claim that slow speeds are really not suitable for machining with small tools. They state that high spindle speed reduces chip load which in turn reduces cutting forces.

    If that applies to wood as well then 10k RPM spindle may be too slow to be a good fit for MPCNC and a 30k cut-out tool is a lot better choice even if it doesn’t have speed control.

    https://www.datron.com/Content/DATRON_HSM_White_Paper.pdf

    That deals with higher feedrates than the mpcnc can provide, 200+ IPM, and I’m pretty sure you don’t want to use coolant when machining wood. Because they are using ethanol, they can keep the tool cool despite the very small chipload. With wood, you can’t really use coolant, other than airblast, but primarily, taking the biggest bite you can will take heat away from the cutter.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #113911

    rkrammes
    Participant

    I’d say make the timeline with all the screenshots and clips you feel will make the facts clearer.  You’re not running for president.  You don’t need to tiptoe around anything as long as you make sure that everything is clear, factual and doesn’t include any personal attacks.  Personally, I believe the most impact would come from expressing your intentions and passion.  Get it all in there and then move on.  It’s the project that is important to you, not this situation.

    As for the crowdsourcing thing, you should leverage it somehow.  Look how powerful Tom’s crowdsourced protest has been.  If people are willing to donate their time to this project then you are wasting some of your profits (social currency) by not taking advantage of that.  Remember, this is a disruptive technology.  You don’t need to be completely open-source to fight the man.  You are the Vicious1.  Embrace it!  You don’t really want to be what Prusa has become anyway.  Do you?  Keep the design locked down and don’t worry about straddling that line.  The MPCNC belongs to the MPCNC community, not yahoos looking to hurt the community.

    Forget about copyright and go with trademark.  That’s what gets you support.  That’s what get’s you in the community.  That’s what get’s you some dependability.  Sell your parts because they are the best parts.  You are the expert.  You have researched all the options.  You know what best fits in the ecosystem.  Go higher end in your store because it’s the best stuff.  Maybe make everything in trademark Vicious red and invest in some kind of multi-material equipment so your trademark logo stands out and isn’t so easy to reproduce.  If you could go parametric then options could be more like levels: making chips as cheap as it gets, best bang for your buck, and epic DIY nerd.  I heard somewhere these machines can cut aluminum ;). I think an epic DIY nerd would want to get to the final level and cut official aluminum upgrades with their master level MPCNC that they leveled up from as cheap as it gets.  How awesome would your trademarked logo look engraved on these pieces?

    Your store should be the official store but the forums should belong to the community.  Start a fully transparent sponsorship program to support it.  Sponsorship could buy access to the developer’s forum and cool tags and recognition for the designs that make it into the official build.  These makers are heroes in a disruptive world.  People just want to be recognized for their hard work. Game-ify the design process.  Let the sponsors decide which upgrades are worthy.  They are the ones that have proven their passion with their pocketbooks.  They are the ones that are going to take the power of manufacturing back into the garage where great things will really get done.

     

     

    …LOL.  That’s all probably terrible advice but it seems like you could be at a pivot point and it was fun fantasizing.  You don’t need to change anything and it’s still super awesome in my book!  Good luck Ryan!

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #113912

    Ahmed A.
    Participant

    not sure what the Motion Picture Association of America rating in here is but f^&k Tom and his fanboys. I’m still building one.

    Ryan, I love your design. You are making CNC accessible to so many people. I’ve already tackled metalworking, woodworking, 3D Printing and I’ve always wanted to try CNC, but the price of the off the shelves are ridiculous, especially if you are just starting out.

    So big ups to you for creating something in this world. handclap. handclap. handclap.

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #113913

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Well shoot I leave for dinner and you all come up with some amazing ideas, and some fresh perspectives. Awesome, thank you. Hope this isn’t weird, but you all just made me feel pretty good. I am going to (try) to unplug from this for a bit to hold onto that feeling.

    Rene, Master ZenJ, do not let me forget to start a new topic. I would love to figure that out.

    Ahmed, welcome.

    Rk, I actually like most of those ideas very unique point of view but promising and possible.

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #113916

    David Walling
    Participant

    Okay maybe this will lighten things up a little bit. Yesterday was brutal I had never read so many horrible comments from complete strangers directed at me and using my name. I think at some point I started to get a little numb then I read this…

    “Ryan, you are a butthole”

    LOL, seriously winner for best comment ever. That is in the middle of all sorts of nasty stuff and fighting about morals and laws. Some person wanted to voice a slight lean towards hate but was not that pissed about it all enough to hate me. Hey I promise if any of you are ever mad at me, feel free to call me a butthole if it makes you feel better, I really do not mind. I had not laughed that had in a long time.

     

    Really think you should run with this for a bit… change your screen name on the forum to butthole and change your icon to a brown dot 😀

    #113933

    Anttix
    Participant

    +1 to new topic about github docs.

    I did some quick reading yesterday how this could work. So far the best method seems to be a separate repo with a CI task: https://www.growingwiththeweb.com/2016/07/enabling-pull-requests-on-github-wikis.html

    #113934

    Gene buckle
    Participant

    After thinking about this the entire drive home yesterday (1.5 hours… ugh), I think I can boil this down to something that’s easily understood.

    This isn’t about copyright.  It’s not about trademarks.  It’s about a license and what that license permits you to do once you download the parts, thus accepting the license.

    There’s really only two points.

    1. If you create a derivative work, you must license it the same as the original.
    2. The non-commercial clause says you can’t print the MPCNC parts to sell to other people.

    The creation of a derivative work is painfully obvious.  The only possible way a rational person is going to disagree with this is if they’re willfully misunderstanding to create chaos and/or drama.

    The NC clause isn’t going to prevent you from raking in those big bucks with your wobbly goblin. 🙂

    This is not a hard thing to grasp.  People that are not grasping it are doing so purposefully and for their own inscrutable reasons.

    Ryan: Yeah, I know – I’ve already got one.  However, I built the silly thing too big for the MPCNC platform.  That’s my own damn fault. 🙂  I figure that building one live would a) be fun and b) prove to people that it’s easy to do without stepping on your d*ck every time you turn around. 😉

    I never did get the spindle connected.  It’s wired and ready to go, I just got squirrelificated. 😉 (“Gah!  I’m out of room!  I must build a huge mezzanine to solve this problem!”  followed by, “Gah!  This place is a disaster!  Must reorgan..wait!  I’ve got to finish the infeed table on my miter saw sta…wait!  I’ve got to get that french cleat system up in the woodsho…Wait!  There’s now a 1394lb crate with a flight simulator in it that I must now deal with!”)

    So yeah…didn’t get that done. 🙂

    g.

    4 users thanked author for this post.
    #113940

    Jeffeb3
    Participant

    +1 to new topic about github docs.

    I did some quick reading yesterday how this could work. So far the best method seems to be a separate repo with a CI task: https://www.growingwiththeweb.com/2016/07/enabling-pull-requests-on-github-wikis.html

    https://www.v1engineering.com/forum/topic/community-documentation/

    #113950

    Viktor
    Participant

    That last video by Tom was something else… And don’t even bother looking at the comments. But coming here and seeing all the support for Ryan and the MPCNC made me really happy. I’m sure that the haters will forget about this in no time and the negativity will blow over. Left you have more people than every knowing about the MPCNC and a community that have been galvanized by rallying behind Ryan and the MPCNC.

    From seeing other people doing it I was inspired to send a donation, leave a 5 star review on google and I will buy a tee-shirt to show my support. However, tee spring is not letting me buy a shirt right now.. Anyone having the same issue?

    Ryan, I think you have a lot of good advice in this thread to move forward with blog posts and other things so I won’t add anything to that, but I hope you feel that you have the support here needed to get over this small bump.

     

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #113953

    Tim
    Participant

    I would be curious how a priority support system might work. For example, anyone who makes a purchase of $25 or larger on the shop might get access to a hidden forum. That way, if you open sourced, people could still get support for machines they didn’t buy from you, but people who bought something from the shop (I, for example, printed the parts and sourced the hardware myself, but I bought the minirambo and wiring kit and a few other items from you) would get a higher level of support. Just spit-balling here, even though I personally don’t think you need to go open source.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #113956

    Anttix
    Participant

    Priority support SLAs is indeed what companies with similar business model usually provide E.g. you can pick up a phone or get an answer to e-mail within a few hours or a working day or so.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Anttix.
    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #113959

    Jeffeb3
    Participant

    I would be curious how a priority support system might work. For example, anyone who makes a purchase of $25 or larger on the shop might get access to a hidden forum. That way, if you open sourced, people could still get support for machines they didn’t buy from you, but people who bought something from the shop (I, for example, printed the parts and sourced the hardware myself, but I bought the minirambo and wiring kit and a few other items from you) would get a higher level of support. Just spit-balling here, even though I personally don’t think you need to go open source.

    I’m not confident that $25 per elite user would be enough to support Ryan, and yet, that still feels expensive for support.

    My original motivation to support on the forums was to reduce the burden on Ryan of the users that didn’t pay him and also to add to the knowledge google can find when troubleshooting. I’ve found a lot of solutions on forums and stack overflow, so I want to give back.

    I worry the good will support on the forums would dwindle.

    The expectations would also be higher, “I payed for support, tell me exactly what to do!”.

    You could have some kind of badge for people who have donated, but I think this just goes against the words on the donate page. If you cant spare the money to donate, but you want to help, then answer some questions or post some info on your experience. Those things are harder to badge.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #113960

    Jeffeb3
    Participant

    Priority support SLAs is indeed what companies with similar business model usually provide E.g. you can pick up a phone or get an answer to e-mail within a few hours or a working day or so.

    Yeah, but this is working pretty well. This is why I wanted a different name for this type of model. It’s almost exactly opposite of the open source product model. Free supoort, standard parts, CC-NC.

    #113964

    doc
    Participant

    I’m a resident surgeon that has CNC as a side hobby. I don’t really have much time to participate in the community given the nature of my profession.  Nonetheless, I felt it important to express my appreciation and support of V1 Engineering, the community built around MPCNC, and the progenitor of it all.

    Ryan, you have given me great joy in building and operating my MPCNC (which will be exponential once I finish my lowrider v2).  As a medical student and now resident, the signs, carvings, custom frames and other works of art produced by the MPCNC helped me stand apart from the crowd.  In fact, during interviews with surgical residency programs my work with the MPCNC was one of the first things discussed at length.  I don’t want to give you all the credit for getting into a surgical residency, but you certainly helped; and for that, I am thankful.

    Keep your head up, stay focused, and as surgeons love to say: dominate the day.

     

    3 users thanked author for this post.
    #113965

    Aaron
    Participant

    Because they are using ethanol, they can keep the tool cool despite the very small chipload. With wood, you can’t really use coolant, other than airblast, but primarily, taking the biggest bite you can will take heat away from the cutter.

    I don’t think you need coolant to take advantage of this phenomenon. Here’s an old article on CNCCookbook with pretty impressive graphs at the bottom http://s3.cnccookbook.com/CCCNCMillFeedsSpeedsHeat.htm

    For Alu the heat drop after a certain breaking point is absolutely drastic. Not so much for steel, but let’s be honest, cutting steel is at the edge of the MPCNC envelope anyway. If we can get to the other side of the “hump” … 🙂

    After some more digging I found another interesting read. This source claims that cutting forces drop sharply after a point as well. It turns out that the speed at which the cutter is hitting the material does matter and the behavior of the chip changes at high velocities. They were shooting workpieces in the 50s to do this research, that is badass in my book 😀

    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.469.365&rep=rep1&type=pdf

    Now all of this is theoretical and everything I’ve found so far applies to metals. I have to do some more digging to see if there is similar research about cutting wood.

    You may not need coolant, but you need the feedrate. Sorry, unless your mpcnc is rigid enough to push 300ipm (as per the datron paper) without vibrating and breaking the bit, those techniques are best applied to the really rigid machines. We already know that faster spindle speed requires more feedrate. Most run the mpcnc at 35ipm, lol.

    #113966

    Tim
    Participant

    I would be curious how a priority support system might work. For example, anyone who makes a purchase of $25 or larger on the shop might get access to a hidden forum. That way, if you open sourced, people could still get support for machines they didn’t buy from you, but people who bought something from the shop (I, for example, printed the parts and sourced the hardware myself, but I bought the minirambo and wiring kit and a few other items from you) would get a higher level of support. Just spit-balling here, even though I personally don’t think you need to go open source.

    I’m not confident that $25 per elite user would be enough to support Ryan, and yet, that still feels expensive for support.

    My original motivation to support on the forums was to reduce the burden on Ryan of the users that didn’t pay him and also to add to the knowledge google can find when troubleshooting. I’ve found a lot of solutions on forums and stack overflow, so I want to give back.

    I worry the good will support on the forums would dwindle.

    The expectations would also be higher, “I payed for support, tell me exactly what to do!”.

    You could have some kind of badge for people who have donated, but I think this just goes against the words on the donate page. If you cant spare the money to donate, but you want to help, then answer some questions or post some info on your experience. Those things are harder to badge.

    I agree but I would like to clarify that it wouldn’t be a donation, but the support would be attached to a purchase from Ryan’s shop–purchasing printed parts would be enough of a purchase for the forum access, purchasing a board would be enough, purchasing $25 worth of stickers would be enough, etc. You wouldn’t be paying for support, you would be receiving support as a benefit of sourcing your parts through Ryan.

    Perhaps the forum could still have across the board read access but creating a new THREAD could be limited to people who have bought from the shop. That way people who did not buy from the shop (meaning they bought/printed their own parts, sourced their own hardware, and then sourced their own electronics–which are really not cheaper elsewhere anyway) could still get the benefit of searching and figuring out on their own, but they couldn’t create new support threads. Which could actually be nice in general… you know how difficult it is to support someone who decided they didn’t want to follow the recommendations set forth by Ryan and went with some off brand no name controller, got the wrong lead screw, bought steel reinforced belts, got a cruddy spindle, etc.

     

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #113967

    Guangmin Haralick
    Participant

    I accidentally watched Tom’s MPCNC video (the last one), and then went back to his previous video to find out what was going on. I was so surprised that instead of solving the problems, he decided to end the project. Even shocked me more was the brutal comments from people who did not even build a MPCNC.

    Well, Ryan, my MPCNC is working very well and is doing just what I wanted and even is exceeding my expectation. Though initially I did not mean to use it to cut wood a lot, because the machine is sitting in our kitchen, but I just can’t resist the temptation so I am using it almost daily on wood. I made some beautiful sculptures.

    I highly suspect, just like many others in this forum, that the spindle Tom used was a big problem. Right after I built my machine, I did not have any spindle, so I used one of my 12V DC motor to do some light engraving on wood. I saw some chattering, though not as bad as in Tom’s video. Eventually I bought DeWalt 660 and use it ever since, no problem at all.

    Thank you again Ryan for the beautiful design that brings joy to many people around the world!

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #113969

    Tim
    Participant

    Because they are using ethanol, they can keep the tool cool despite the very small chipload. With wood, you can’t really use coolant, other than airblast, but primarily, taking the biggest bite you can will take heat away from the cutter.

    I don’t think you need coolant to take advantage of this phenomenon. Here’s an old article on CNCCookbook with pretty impressive graphs at the bottom http://s3.cnccookbook.com/CCCNCMillFeedsSpeedsHeat.htm

    For Alu the heat drop after a certain breaking point is absolutely drastic. Not so much for steel, but let’s be honest, cutting steel is at the edge of the MPCNC envelope anyway. If we can get to the other side of the “hump” … 🙂

    After some more digging I found another interesting read. This source claims that cutting forces drop sharply after a point as well. It turns out that the speed at which the cutter is hitting the material does matter and the behavior of the chip changes at high velocities. They were shooting workpieces in the 50s to do this research, that is badass in my book 😀

    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.469.365&rep=rep1&type=pdf

    Now all of this is theoretical and everything I’ve found so far applies to metals. I have to do some more digging to see if there is similar research about cutting wood.

    You may not need coolant, but you need the feedrate. Sorry, unless your mpcnc is rigid enough to push 300ipm (as per the datron paper) without vibrating and breaking the bit, those techniques are best applied to the really rigid machines. We already know that faster spindle speed requires more feedrate. Most run the mpcnc at 35ipm, lol.

    This is true. Reading tool manufacturer data is usually useless even with an actual machine tool because it’s all based on high HP machines with optimal setups. You need every part of the equation to make things work at those numbers… setup, spindle HP, rigidity, RPM.

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